I have not looked, but I have to imagine the sensitivity is reduced in the tunes, much as we do in the HEMI applications.

I have not looked, but I have to imagine the sensitivity is reduced in the tunes, much as we do in the HEMI applications.

I've checked a few more and the Knock threshold tables are deffinately left stock

I asked around, and the reason we did not mess with the knock sensors is because we do not add any timing inthese tunes, in fact some have a bit of timing pulled, thus we did not think it would be necessary, especially on a stock car.

The idea was if you really wanted the sensors desensitized, you'd likely be running a custom tune anyhow, and you could have the tuner set your knock thresholds however you'd like.

Thanks
Mike

5 degrees of knock IMO can only be real. anything below 2 would have been great, and I would have never worried about it, but 5 degrees can't be an overly sensitive sensor. Especially when I could throw a stronger wastegate on the stock map, and have 0KR.

The sensor read out is just relative to its "Threshold" settings. If you had a S1 PCM you WOULD have had 1-2 degrees of KR, with the exact same DSP tune.

The engine would have performed the EXACT same. Th eonly difference would be the sensor would have reported sligtly less Knock.

This is not true. The engine would have performed with more timing AND more knock.

Update for you guys, i took the srt4 and did a bunch of tests. I was getting 4 degrees pulled, so yanked 4 degrees more from the tables, still got the knock. So i up'd the thresholds for you guys and saw 1 count at 5500rpm. I yanked out 1 degree and still saw the knock however i went pretty aggressive on the thresholds. So i decided not to go any further. I took it out on the street and got 1 count beating on her repeatedly. And i hit the rev limiter when that count showed up, after which i didn't hit it anymore and saw nothing further.

Incorrect

(sigh,,,,,i didn't think I had to re-explain the whole thing)

the S1 would have had more timing except the DSP tune was used it will overwrite the timing back down below the stock level. Since the 93 tune doesn't touch the Knock tables, they would remain untouched at the S1 level which are less sensitive than stock.

So he would have been using the exact same timing but the PCM would have reported LESS knock.

I understand what you're saying. (and this is just for the technical nit discussion)
The PCM would have reported less knock RETARD. The sensors report the same no matter what.

This part is more important. I was under the impression (given by mikel) that ALL ds tunes reduce/raise the threshold. So they would be writing to the knock tables.

Is this not true for the SRT4 tune?

This part is more important. I was under the impression (given by mikel) that ALL ds tunes reduce/raise the threshold. So they would be writing to the knock tables.

Is this not true for the SRT4 tune?

I asked around, and the reason we did not mess with the knock sensors is because we do not add any timing inthese tunes, in fact some have a bit of timing pulled, thus we did not think it would be necessary, especially on a stock car.

The idea was if you really wanted the sensors desensitized, you'd likely be running a custom tune anyhow, and you could have the tuner set your knock thresholds however you'd like.

Thanks
Mike

yea i think its necessary and it will be on the next update. If you guys wanna give this one a try let me know, send me your ori ill send you a custom tune. What kind of boost are you guys seeing on the 93 tune?

with those boost levels you will deff be hitting the top of the timing tables with that.

knocks been reduced to about a .5-1 degree. I smoothed the torque tables out for you guys too. Is there anything else you guys want to see done to these tunes? The cat over temp thing i havent really messed with, 03 is missing the parameter but the others have a 1700 degree threshold. Since these tunes need to be pretty generic i dont want to touch that, i dont mind writing some custom ones for a few guys with stock to mildly modded cars with it taken away. I also managed to take a look at the pt cruisers, they have some seriously high thresholds for knock, however then run some pretty low timing to begin with so..

I've had a catch can in my car since day one and I still get the same knock as everyone else.

03 tunes need the min rpm to enable high airflow test set to 8160, it is done in the 04 and 05 tunes...

I also managed to take a look at the pt cruisers, they have some seriously high thresholds for knock, however then run some pretty low timing to begin with so..

I have a test crom ready for the srt4 guys...i need some test subjects. So hit me up with an email if you guys want the crom.

I have a test crom ready for the srt4 guys...i need some test subjects. So hit me up with an email if you guys want the crom.

i believe i had replied to everyone who sent me an email

I think you missed me. I'll email you again.

Thanks.

wade did you get it this time? I resent it.

I loaded this tune onto my car & it seems to have improved it. But I'm still getting some knock when I'm real heavy onto the gas. This tune did reduce at least 50% of the knock I was getting. Should I try to datalog & send you the info?

I'm a lttle inexperienced with datalogging. Hopefully I'll do it right & send it to you to look at.

Your A/F is VERY important. Do you have a widband O2 sensor?

With Don's improvements I had an A/F of 12.8-13.6 at WOT---with 6 degrees of KR. +15% fuel dropped the A/F to 11.7-12.2(perfect) and Knock is usually 0.

damn duster, your a/f's went that lean huh? Im guessing you have a bit more mods then the 93 tune can handle?(forgive me i cant remember whats done to your car)

so. any updates to this? i'm thinking of trying it out

I was out sick yesterday, i have the gentlemans stage 1 cal added to the tool, still waiting on the boss for the ability to make cat over temp an adjustable parameter

yes i am sure they are are loosely associated. Like we all know, dodge runs the cars extremely fat in the wot a/f department. By leaning these cars out to 11.9 egts are significantly raised. However duster has mentioned on another forum about cat over temp and its function. It uses a pre set exhaust temperature table in the pcm...map v.s. rpm = a specific exhaust and/or catalyst temp. By running the car much leaner then the factory calibration is set up for, this table is now pretty much useless as the temps are significantly different v.s. what they were with an a/f of w/e the factory was calling for.

Yes. I was just thinking that the cot might be working as a sort of fail safe for excessive chamber temps as a side effect of protecting the cats. If you guys modified that I wouldn't worry about it being within the reasonable range. On the other hand, without an EGT wideband, and the ability in the handheld to turn it all the way down or off I can imagine a whole lot of people blowing themselves up. Of course they can do that now with afr, timing, and boost but this would be a bit more removed/subtle.

By the way, I'm all for it. I'd rather you didn't gear these things towards selling in Kmart

if worse comes to worse and i get a red light. I will just offer anyone who wants it shut off to just email me and i will turn it off for you.

I was out sick yesterday, i have the gentlemans stage 1 cal added to the tool, still waiting on the boss for the ability to make cat over temp an adjustable parameter

he said no

I'm lost....

One more thing Don/Mike

I was datalogging the other day and noticed the Desired Torque was being capped at 418Nm but the 93tune Desired Torque tables were set 470-500Nm.

When reviewing the 93tune I noticed that Functions>Turbochargers> Torque Limit vs ECT was set to ,,,guess what? 418Nm!(308ft-lb)
Several custom tunes I have reveiwed always up this table so, Is there an improvement here that was overlooked or is it insignificant??

Ill email this to you guys?

i know we spoke about this through email, but you 03 guys have this fixed as well, the 03's didn't have this disabled.

I've got the update, I've got the update. It needs to be field tested. Email me if you want to give it a try, alex got it to me at 530 friday night. There is a fix in there for live data too. If no one noticed, you can log data but when you cut the key, the predator will freeze. Remember those adjustable parameters are there for a reason, every srt4 acts differently, so take advantage of adding fuel, b/c with 12.6, you need it.

remember all i changed were knock thresholds, tweaked mid range timing, smoothed desired torque tables and tweaked a few things that were off between tunes. So if you needed to add fuel, you'll need to do it again. Boost should be similar to brains tunes, i didn't increase desired torque, just smoothed it. Email is sending as i type this..

its been updated a bit...ill send you out the new one

alex added a fix for logging for the predator. Apparently if you logged, shut the car off and then restarted it, the predator would freeze and it would need to be unplugged. I know he added this fix to my crom, ill give him a shout and see if these two things are related or not.

How many PIDs are you logging?

i tested it on the bench and saw no difference in speed logging wise. I may have seen a slight delay in loading times but nothing to write home about. I however did not see loading times get so excessive that i said "wtf"

Ok, well, i tried it out for a few days...first thing I noticed is that it loads things very slowly. I sat there forever uploading the new crom/93 oct tune in the pcm. even when making changes, it's like it pauses, and then takes longer than the 9r17 crom.

did a few pulls, no logging yet, but my a/f are everywhere. first pull, a/f went from high 11's, to mid 12's...backed off. tried again thinkin maybe i didn't add enough fuel, but it's the same amount i've always added. so i left it alone. same day, i did another pull on the way home. now my a/f went from mid 11's to mid 10's...i was like wth.

today, i did another pull, a/f went from high 11's, to mid 12's and then jumped to low 13's. i freaked out...never had that happen to me. tried again thinkin maybe something was up...same thing. pulled the 93oct tune out. loaded the revised ptp tune (still took forever to load), and still had 10.5% fuel added, did a two pulls, and a/f were high 10's low 11's both pulls....

?

I datalogged today and after retarding knock 2* in 2k-3k and 3k-4k rpm's and 3* in 4k-5k and 5k-6k rpm's That brought it down to a 1.5 knock. Initially it had hit 6.0 just like it used to. What's going on? I will post up my dl. The dl is after I added 6% fuel in 3-4, 4-5 and 5-6 rpm's.

Uploaded the 93oct tune that you e-mailed me again back into the PCM. did a pull, 3rd & 4th, and one of just 3rd. a/f were actually better this morning. a few hits of 12.2, no biggie, most of the pull a/f jumped from 11.6-11.9. Here is the log...I have 11% added from 3-4 & 4-5, 10.5% from 5-6, & 10% from 6-7. No timing pulled. Spiking 21 holding 16. Only got 1 count of knock max, once at around 5400 in 3rd, and once at around 5600 in 4th.

http://depositfiles.com/files/ej1to8j5p

I datalogged today and after retarding knock 2* in 2k-3k and 3k-4k rpm's and 3* in 4k-5k and 5k-6k rpm's That brought it down to a 1.5 knock. Initially it had hit 6.0 just like it used to. What's going on? I will post up my dl. The dl is after I added 6% fuel in 3-4, 4-5 and 5-6 rpm's.

Your LTFT is REMOVING 5% fuel during WOT.
Flashing a new tune DOES NOT clear this out. Disconnect the battery for a few minutes and retest to see if you A/F has improved.

Also, your timing looks too high for that ACT to be "just" a 93 tune. looks fishy to me.

btw you're only holding 16psi if you happen to live at 7000ft. If not you're realy only holding about 13-14psi.

I'll disconnect the battery and do another log. I'll double check, but I'm pretty sure that I uploaded the 93 tune in this morning. As for my boost, gauge says 15-16, unless it's that's off. And I'm in FL, so 7000ft is out the question.

interesting, i was going to say wtf...i never touched the open loop fuel etc. Im glad its getting straightened out, well hopefully providing we see this next log. Good to hear, anyway ive got a bench ecu here, flashing, reading, observing load times. I don't see any difference really, read and write speeds were the same between my new crom and the old crom that is out right now. I even timed them haha, read speed was 52.78 seconds, write speed was a minute and 35 seconds. Between the croms there was a +/- 2 seconds. I tested the logging and it was fine for more then 15 seconds, but i could only log battery volts since it was a bench ecu, i would need a car in here to test that to its fullest.

Alright, well, I'm at work now, I could go disconnect for a bit, and then do a log later. as for the WGA, it's one of the original forge wga, had it on for 2 years, plus I bought it used. so the spring may be pretty weak. I do have an AGP wga that I have to send back for repairs.

My point was to get you to realize that PCM boost control kicks ass.

My perfectly good AGP wga sits in my garage. imo it does not provide any benfit over the stock wga + PCM/DS boost contol, only negatives(ptb)

This seems to be a new issue duster, i know what you are talking about. When i had matts car here it was the first time i have seen the issue. Apparently sometimes the tool won't apply changes you make to a tune. To get around this i have been applying a cal to the original backup with all my changes and resaving, which usually won't mess up.

its an issue i will need to tackle coming up shortly....come on guys you know me, ill get it fixed. I just need some time to work on it. I got two tools that are being lame...the 6.4 tool and the this one. I am trying to fix tire size for them while working on this stuff for you guys, just give me some time.

I assume you meant you pulled 2 degrees of timing in those areas? You should log spark @ cyl 1 and base spark. The tune only runs 22 degrees at fuel advance, having to pull and another 2 seems a bit excessive...you have a catch can correct?

Just like LTFT, LT Knock Retard DOES NOT clear when you flash a new tune.
Your log shows 0 ST Knock which is perfect!

The Lt knock that is showing up is just a left over correction from your old tune.

Disconnect the battery to reset LT knock to 0 and you're good to go!

A catch can will catch oil vapor from puddling in the intake manifold. Oil will promote detonation, hence why a lot of Chrysler guys run a catch can. Most guys will run some sea foam through the pcv lines and through a vac line and then throw on a catch can. In MOST instances, knock is reduced significantly.

So I ran the tune again, without pulling any timing, just added fuel, my max hit afr was 12.2, a little high but I will lower it tomorrow. But as to my knock, it still is ridiculously high. What do I need to do for this to work...? Here is my log.

Don & Duster, I posted last nights log...don't know if you've seen the post

First things first, log the proper PIDs. You didn't log the most important PID, MAP. Without it you don't even know what your boost is.

Here's my suggested list: http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f384/what-parameters-datalog-484265/

Second: That's quite a bit of knock for a max A/F of 12.2 and relatively low timing especially with Don's new Knock thresholds. Somethings up. Add fuel back in to get the A/F between 11.5-12.0, clear the LT KR and retest. A more complete list of PIDs might show an issue.

Are you using 91 octane fuel or 93?
Do you have a way to datalog A/F?
What brand of wideband are you using?

Get the A/F under 12.0 before you do anything else.

Log as many PIDs on the list i provided as you can.
OPen Loop Fa
LT fuel trim
St fuel trim
These and most of the others are very important and should be logged every time

For those of us running the DSP and not yet having a Wideband, should we be concerned with running lean being we can't see what the A/F is? I've had 6* pulled due to knock, and I'm spiking to 22 or so psi dropping off to around 15psi. I've pulled timing to rid of knock but I still don't know what my A/F is. I was adding fuel while pulling timing as well (added about 6-7% from 3-7K RPM) I was originaly under the impression this was a pretty safe tune to run but I'm not too sure now. Thanks guys *Mods list below.

I have an AEM wideband UEGO. My afr's hit 12.4 today cuz of the cold weather, higher boost i guess. I logged with the map today. I turned down my boost after this log and added another 3% of fuel to each rpm range. I will dl this new addition tomorrow. But here is the one I did today.




So I ran a dl again today but with lowered boost and more fuel. My fuel is +~12% in each rpm range. I ran it in 3rd gear and my boost was at ~15psi and creeping maybe to 16. I wanted it to be ~18-19 but I guess I went too low. I didn't get a chance to run again after raising it up some but here is my datalog.

Fuel: +~12%
Boost: ~15-16psi
AFR: mid 10's

I'm hoping with my goal 18-19psi that my afr's will be mid 11's.

BTW: I put in new NGK 4306's gapped @ .32. Before I was stock champions gapped @ .50. That might've been a problem.

-93 octane btw.

Ok, Duster or Don, help me out here.

Car has been running pretty good. Duster, you mentioned the 93 oct tune (9r18 crom), was pulling 2% LT fuel, so I pulled the negative cable off last night for about an hour while I got ready to go out. Didn't do any pulls last night, this morning I added fuel (was running 11.8-11.9, thought I would bring it down a little). 12.5% 3-4k, 12.5% 4-5k, 12% 5-6k, 11.5% 6-7k (as of right now).

Did a pull this morning 3rd-4th, temps are prob 10 degrees cooler than the last time I showed you my log, a/f are stuck in the 12.0-12.2, sometimes drop to 11.9. Before, I would only add 10% and run high 10's mid low 11's. But seems as if lately with the 93oct tune it's running a bit leaner, and having to add more fuel. AS for fuel mods, stock PCM, stock fuel system, fuel pump rewire. Also, while looking at the graph, seems like LT fuel is still -4%, before it was -2%.

I'm not getting any knock besides the high rpm of maybe 1 count. LT knock comes and goes, but can't pinpoint where it's at, again it's only 1 count. Any input and suggestions would be helpfull. Spike hasn't changed, 20-21 psi and drops down to about 17-18, and falls off to around 14 by 5800 or sooner.

http://depositfiles.com/files/ucytd4mgy

Ok, Duster or Don, help me out here.

Car has been running pretty good. Duster, you mentioned the 93 oct tune (9r18 crom), was pulling 2% LT fuel, so I pulled the negative cable off last night for about an hour while I got ready to go out. Didn't do any pulls last night, this morning I added fuel (was running 11.8-11.9, thought I would bring it down a little). 12.5% 3-4k, 12.5% 4-5k, 12% 5-6k, 11.5% 6-7k (as of right now).

Did a pull this morning 3rd-4th, temps are prob 10 degrees cooler than the last time I showed you my log, a/f are stuck in the 12.0-12.2, sometimes drop to 11.9. Before, I would only add 10% and run high 10's mid low 11's. But seems as if lately with the 93oct tune it's running a bit leaner, and having to add more fuel. AS for fuel mods, stock PCM, stock fuel system, fuel pump rewire. Also, while looking at the graph, seems like LT fuel is still -4%, before it was -2%.

I'm not getting any knock besides the high rpm of maybe 1 count. LT knock comes and goes, but can't pinpoint where it's at, again it's only 1 count. Any input and suggestions would be helpfull. Spike hasn't changed, 20-21 psi and drops down to about 17-18, and falls off to around 14 by 5800 or sooner.

http://depositfiles.com/files/ucytd4mgy

without any changes to the a/f (adding fuel)? not sure. when i uploaded the crom, i made the changes at the same time before. and a/f were mid to high 11's. I'm thinking it was the cooler weather that raised the a/f a few points. this morning was about 8-10 degrees warmer than that morning and a/f's were back in the mid 11's

I would assume the pcm has a bit of an adaptive learning curve as well. By changing tunes/undoing the battery if may be affecting your results. I would drive the car a bit, letting it do its thing and see if it stabilizes.

so are you guys ready to get this thing released yet?

so are you guys ready to get this thing released yet?

timing tweaks, knock sensitivity adjusted, a few hardware upgrades and support added for a stage 1 cal